NIGHTWISH: Anette Olzon says her collapse was a wakeup-call for the entire band

26.06.2009

Nightwish vocalist Anette Olzon has revealed in the new Soundi-magazine the reasons behind her collapse on last November.

Swedish-native Anette collapsed totally while Nightwish was playing in Belo Horizonte, Brazil. The collapse raised many speculations about the chemistry and situations inside the band.

Anette reveals in the interview how the touring-life came to her as a bit of a surprise.

"Until that gig (Belo Horizonte) I managed to be pretty much perfect. But I am a person, not a machine. A person can take stress to a certain limit but on that concert it simply went overboard. The moment of collapse is not nice to anyone but it cleared a lot of air inside the band", Anette reveals.

Her collapse ment a change to the whole band.

"Of course it was a wakeup-call to the whole group. We had to think if there was something wrong in our working habits and should we change something. But things don't always go like in the movies. In a community there are always people you get along better than with others. We don't have to love everyone as long as we remember to respect and understand each other with the best of our abilities."

The news of Anette walking off stage in Belo Horizonte (November 11th 2008)

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Comments

Kudos to Anette for staying strong through the rough times! <3

Angela wrote on 26.06.2009 at 00:13
Anette complains a little much about the stress of being in the band, her divorce and other issues. im not trying to call her out or anything but seriously

Hayley wrote on 26.06.2009 at 01:00
Wow. Maybe they just need to take it easy a bit.

sHELLbis wrote on 26.06.2009 at 01:21
ummm..........!!!

MQ. wrote on 26.06.2009 at 02:42
I hope you okay take it easy for awhile!

scorpiobone wrote on 26.06.2009 at 03:50
things happen...sh!t happens.. they have to move on and keep on doing some great job... people get over it ...

Dante wrote on 26.06.2009 at 05:21
I am just curious on how long this stress can continue with her... After all it is painfully obvious that she cannot seem to handle it just yet. That can determine her future in the band too. However, I wish the best for them!

James wrote on 26.06.2009 at 05:50
I wonder who doesn't "love" whom within the band???

Samantha wrote on 26.06.2009 at 08:23
I do not understand these people at all - first they denied something happened - smoke was the problem. They they say nothing serious happened at all and they are SO HAPPY now.

They even complained why is this issue discussed for so long.

Now, after half a year when their fans and press stopped discussed this, Anette decided to come with the issue AGAIN.

It is the same like Tarja issue - every here and there they mention Tarja, (see below) And then they complain that we do not stop discussing Tarja, finally.

So now the die-hards will be coming here and leaving messages like poor Anette, stop discussing her, let her be... bla-bla-bla.

Clearly: whenever they have a feeling that they are not discussed in press properly, they are coming with emotional break-downs or Tarja or Tarja AND emotional break-downs.

Dear die-hards!
Ask dear Nightwish not to come with the same crap AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN and we will stop to criticize them again and again and again, for the same reasons.
WE UNDERSTAND their need to be in the press, but at least they could show some respect to their fans and come with some NEW crap, do not you think so?

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 09:52
@ mermaid

I understand where you are coming from. Why is Anette bringing up this issue again? Do they want the negative attention or what? I mean, I don't hate Anette but come on, she should realize that what she is saying is basically digging herself a bigger hole! They really need to just move on from this. Plus, I really don't know how this is a "wake up call" to the band. She was the one who stormed off the stage and acted unprofessional in front of the fans and NW. The band was just doing the normal routine, and what she did just made herself a victim for fan bashing, media attention, and constant jeering from the haters! The band and herself need to stay away from saying stupid crap to the media, because it is hurting their reputation! The same goes with Marco and his comment on Tarja about her stage presence. As much as I like him as a vocalist, he needs to stay quiet about NW's past. That to me will be the only way NW can successfully get over what has happened during the last 5 years or so. Tarja seems to be doing just fine now. She loves her band and she doesn't make stupid comments about her former bandmates because she knows that every word she says is documented like glue! I give her credit for being smart and being true to herself and what she does. Don't get me wrong, NW is still a good band, but they have a lot of kinks to work out... :0

James wrote on 26.06.2009 at 10:33
why are you still talking about Tarja, she's not in the band anymore and sh's not mentionned in this article.

Now James and mermaid please we are in vacation: be relax and let NW go.Enjoy the sun and good music (whatever it is for you)

Elise wrote on 26.06.2009 at 10:46
to James: exactly as you said

to Elise: I said "see below", but I will copy that for you here: Tarja is mentioned in:
NIGHTWISH: Marco Hietala interview "I have started singing more since Anette joined the band" (16.06.09) (87 comments)
and in
NIGHTWISH´s singer: "Tarja seems like a very nice and sweet person" (08.06.09) (33 comments)

(or http://www.truveo.com/tuomas-holopainen-anette-olzon-interview/id/3817257522 or other sources)

which is like EVERY SECOND INTERVIEW just on this page - or - you might say - every 8 days. That is why it bothers me already.
but read James´ comment - he put that very nicely.
Tarja grew up.
Nightwish did not.

They actually decided it is time for world to discuss their emotional breakdowns AGAIN and that is why we have been offered with it by Anette AGAIN.

My point is - if it MUST be emotional break-down, why somebody else does not suffer with it THIS TIME?
Jukka, perhaps? Or Empu? That would be a bit of change, finally.

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 11:55
Still, if somebody of you see a REASON why is Anette coming with this BORING issue AFTER HALF a YEAR AGAIN,

do not hesitate and let us know, please.

Would be frustrated to die stupid.

Thanks in advance,

mermaid

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 12:05
@ Elise:

"why are you still talking about Tarja, she's not in the band anymore and sh's not mentionned in this article."

true, but you're forgetting that when the incident in Belo Horizonte happened Holopainen said it was some obsessive Tarjaholics's fault.
Now, thanks to Anette's honesty, we know there were pretty bad problems WITHIN the band (oh, why I'm not surprised at all?) and that THAT was the main cause for her breakdown. Go watch youtube video about it and you will STILL find a ridiculous amount of Tuomas ass-lickers who are blaming supposed Tarja fans for something that the band AND King Foo did instead.

So, WHO is constantly and unnecessarily bringing out Tarja to cover up the band's OWN faults?

... wrote on 26.06.2009 at 12:08
It's a wake up call for the band? I hope so, because now the band can see that their strong opinions about Tarja so called screaming for her health issues on tour were true. And that the whole letter was just a farce for kicking her out. Because Annette is suffering from the same circumstances. I guess the guys are bigger diva's than the chicks in the band ;)

Carolina wrote on 26.06.2009 at 12:35
.. so true, Carolina.

Looks like maestro is (and was) the biggest diva.

Still, why they DENIED so much THAT TIME and coming with this AFTER HALF a YEAR, that is what I am not getting.

Very touchy of Anette being so HONEST now, but why did she denied half a year ago? Their way of how to change thier interpretation of what happened is really killing me.

We use to say: To lie is ok, but it is a SHAME being cought doing so.

Maybe they have been honest that time. Maybe they are honest now. BUT FOR SURE they are NOT honest all the time.
:-)

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 13:24
Do you remember, what maestro said about new vocalist?

He said that with new vocalist they would manage 2 hours of show, and not just one hour like with Turunen,
he said that new vocalist will bring much more artistic oportunities (and Marco said that, too) because of versatility of her voice
and basically he gave a lot of hints leading you to persuasion that Tarja was way too pampered and diificult and diva to do a real job as their singer.

We all saw what we saw. As far as I know nothing of that happened.

I am not going to mentioned illnesses, emotional -breakdowns, cancelled shows, lame and short performances, band members forgetting to play their songs, vocalist forgeting lyrics, etc. etc.

i just would like to point out that Tarja might/or might not be a Diva, but FOR SURE she was and is A VERY PROFFESIONAL one.

I do not like the music she is doing now, but it is fair to say, she is different then her former band mates.
But in a good sense, not as described in their/Ollila´s book.

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 13:38
@ Carolina

Excellent point.

@ mermaid

A pretty good explanation of why they lied is noise.If they had told that it was just a nervous breakdown,no one would make it such a big deal.
Instead,they chose to blame Tarja's fans(and indirectly,Tarja herself) and to start new flame wars.
This band shows that prefers to stay on top by making tabloid stories instead of respecting their fans and make good music with good love shows.
On the contrary,they choose water companies,still talking about Tarja,nervous breakdowns,and blogs made for solely clothing sponsors promotion.

Legeon wrote on 26.06.2009 at 13:47
@mermaid

"Still, why they DENIED so much THAT TIME and coming with this AFTER HALF a YEAR, that is what I am not getting."

because half the amount of the New Era's commercial success had been built through the whole media circus surrounding the open letter, the biography and the countless interviews they made: to sum it up, the band is Faultless, Innocent, Noble and Pure, while Tarja's husband is Satan and she was stupid enough to be lured to the Dark Side.
They cannot afford to admit they have made mistakes too, and that maybe King Foo is not THAT good at taking care of the singers' need: the naive fanboys who have chosen to be forever on their side because Tuomas is sooo innocent and perfect and Tarja is eviiilz might start thinking that maybe things weren't as black and white as the band claimed. They NEEDED to deny having problems.
As for now, it's just Anette who is talking honestly about this. I'm not idealizing her at all, but since last year she has begun to openly say that the band HAS some problems, and that she understands Tarja's position and complaints. She sounds honest, albeit not very smart, for I bet Holopainen is NOT happy AT ALL about her solidarizing with Tarja.

... wrote on 26.06.2009 at 13:55
As for Legeon: you are right, as usually.

as for Wrote: very good point, too. Still, Anette blamed smoke first, if I remember correct. Anyway, do you know where can I see this interview? All of it?
Thanks in advance.

PS: it is weird that die-hards did not come yet to critize us for our criticizm and to ask us to let poor Nightwish be, etc., etc.
Hope they are ok.
I mean it seriously, I think it should be quite hard for them, to see their idols to melt down like this.

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 14:30
@ mermaid

She said that about the smoke machine,but also that she was under a lot of stress in Made in Hong Kong doumentary...But i don't remember any interview where she said it...

Legeon wrote on 26.06.2009 at 14:40
To Legeon: I meant I would like to read all the interview mentioned here (see top of the page) interview in Soundi magazine, where she started this isuue again.

I would like to check it, like all of it.

Thanks anyways.

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 15:09
@ mermaid

yes, she said that the smoke caused her to loose her voice. That was indeed a pretty lame excuse, but at least she didn't bring out Tarja like Tuomas did.
About her solidarizing with Tarja, there's an interesting interview in Rocksound Magazine from august 2008 (but I don't know where you can read it, sorry) in which she says that working with the band has changed her perspective about the split and that she has seen "things that made the whole mess happen within the band", meaning that the guys aren't faultless at all. She also says that she now understands Tarja's perspective.
Also, in January there was the infamous interview with that Finnish magazine where she said that after the incident in Brazil she had a fight with the guys, explained why she hired a manager and she added that now she really understands Tarja better.
I'm not saying that she's right on that matter, for indeed leaving the stage in the middle of a concert IS unprofessional. But at least she had the guts to admit that things in Nightwish are not at all pinky and sparkly as the band's self-promotional strategy tried to show down our throats until last November.

... wrote on 26.06.2009 at 15:16
"I thought that being in a huge metal act would be easy and no stressful at all." How naive. I don't think Anette is suitable to be in Nightwish in any perspective. She doesn't look like she's in a rock/metal band at all, and she can't even handle herself on tour.

bart wrote on 26.06.2009 at 15:52
I am getting a bit "Budha" feeling now, (in sense of being in a harmony and trying to be fair and accept even different points of view in one go).
Zen REALLY helps if you work with people.

So what about this point - Anette is moving (or was made to move by guys) on "Tarja´s" side.
Or better said we have two sides in this band again and conflict in-beteew them raising.
There is no need to call the "other side" by Tarja´s name, we can call it Sami´s side, too. Let us just say:

we have Maestro´s/NW side AND
we have "the other side" again. (Sami´s, Tarja´s, Anette´s, etc.)

That might be the reason why Anette suddenly started to see things differently.
That might be the reason for change in her perspective.

Not because of her sudenly warm feelings to Tarja, or Sami (which are clearly not responded by any of them!!).

But simply because she found herself - whether she wanted it or not - suddenly wearing the same shoes walking the same path like these two ex-members.

So maybe she is not telling lies (you are right, ...wrote, she does not seem to be very smart).

Maybe nobody is telling lies. Maybe they just grew up to here, into two oposite camps. And THE BEING THERE made her feeling "closer to Tarja".

It is something what I see quite offen. People who are lame and about to be kicked out, suddenly start to be friends. Many of them could not stand the other guys FOR years. But in the end the situation they are in make them friends.

We call it "soon-to-be-shot club". And it is interesting socialogical fact. Being a "victim", or "being in danger" could unite even the people who hate each other.
Do not ask why, I do not know. I just witnessed that.

What I like to stress your attention to is this: Tarja really grew up. She does not react even to this sudden "comrade". Though it might be atrractive to join this little war again and say: Look I was telling you this all the time.

And that is very classy of her.

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 16:02
Bart, where did you get that?

mermaid wrote on 26.06.2009 at 16:06
Ok, I admit it, I don't really know what to think about Nightwish anymore which sucks since they have always been one of my favourite bands. And I realised the truth when somebody here said "Tarja grew up, Nightwish did not" It's very true. She just got on with her life after this and was very successful....Nightwish....I dunno...

But I was gonna add that I think Anette has brought this up because she was asked to, not because she wants to. And that might be the same in every other article about them and their problems or their split with Tarja.

But still....I have lost a lot of respect for Nightwish this past year. And I used to listen to them nearly all the time. Now? Rarely. And mostly their old stuff. I'm not sure how this has happened, but I sure as hell hope they realise what a mess they've created sometime soon.

Apocalyptigasm (formerly known as Sarah) wrote on 26.06.2009 at 16:24
@ Apocalyptigasm

Reading your post it was like reading about myself.
I technically grew up listening only NW,and they were my favorite band.But during the last few years,especially 2008,i find myself not passing their songs in my mp4.And mostly new stuff.
I found it very disappointing to see that my favorite band all this time plays with us.They pretended to be friends and a close band-they weren't.
They want to show like they are for the music-but they clearly aren't.
They had the potential to become a big band.No,few thousands of fans don't count as "big band". But with their obsession over media and fame,they have destroyed their reputation and now everyone is paying attention on their tabloid stories instead of their music.

Legeon wrote on 26.06.2009 at 16:56
they seem to have become a band with a hell lot of problems

and i dont like bands in such a condition.......

theirmusic will surely become shit if this continues

honestly wrote on 26.06.2009 at 17:20
@ Apocalyptigasm (formerly known as Sarah)

"But still....I have lost a lot of respect for Nightwish this past year. And I used to listen to them nearly all the time. Now? Rarely. And mostly their old stuff. I'm not sure how this has happened, but I sure as hell hope they realise what a mess they've created sometime soon."

Sad but true. That is how I feel too. Their new stuff is okay but I prefer their older stuff for sure. They seemed more innocent and more professional when they had Tarja. Now it seems like they are running a circus with all of this negative media attention. I feel bad for them because this is/was a great band and I hope they get it together.

@ Legeon, mermaid, and ...

You guys are all making very valid points about the band and their issues. But I wonder how long they will still be a band. One day everything will fall apart. I mean, I have never seen a band have this much publicity and scrutiny since Metallica with the Napster issue. This can't keep going on, it isn't healthy! What NW did to Tarja in 2005 basically created a big hate following for them and they only have themselves to blame (not that Tarja was an angel either, but she seemed to grow up :) ). Also, I have a bad feeling about King Foo Entertainment too. They aren't doing a good job with the band's publicity and are continuing to run the show in NW. But we will see the kind of direction the band with take into the next year.

James wrote on 26.06.2009 at 17:43
... said: "She sounds honest, albeit not very smart, for I bet Holopainen is NOT happy AT ALL about her solidarizing with Tarja."

Of course he is not happy. He stated that Anette will not be giving any new interviews because that is "too stressful for her". I'm not sure for whom it's more stressful for Anette or for him. ;-)

TheSeer wrote on 26.06.2009 at 18:29
OmG... I think it was better to finish Nightwish than choosing anette for new singer.. wtf she is doing ? Does AnYTIME Tarja left scene and started crying without reason as fakin emo ? Jesus.. guys, u have really bad ears if u prefer anette :x
There are milions girls singing much better, and anette dont even like metal music, so shame for Nightwish.

KinslayeR wrote on 26.06.2009 at 23:13
@ honestly

Yeah, it sucks to see a great band like this suffer so heavily! But they kind of deserve it considering all of the dumb comments and attention that they wanted. No one in the band is safe here. It is a combination of crap that happened though. And now Anette finally realizes the band's issues, but she really is not helping matters either! What a shame.

@ Legeon

Yeah, the media and their tabloid exposure is bad for them. But what they need to do is to listen to their older material and realize that the music is more important than fame. If I were them, I would steer clear of answering any questions regarding the past and focus on the future. I hope they find their way. I am very curious to see how they will turn out with the next album too! Only time will tell.

James wrote on 26.06.2009 at 23:21
Nightwish, I really hope you are reading our comments (I doubt it :p)! You need to take our advice, the fans, but mostly the angry and frustrated fans here! We are coming here for a reason, not to say bad things on purpose(just to clear that up), but to keep people informed! To sum it all up, the band seriously needs a wake up call or else they will lose their support!

James wrote on 26.06.2009 at 23:23
One nw member want to leave the band, and one will be kicked out soon.

Only a tip.

Me wrote on 27.06.2009 at 00:02
I live in Belo Horizonte, but I didn't went to show because I am not big fan of Anette. In my opinion, who pays for watch to show just to boo is donkey.
PS: Sorry, but my English is very poor :)

Aaron Jordan wrote on 27.06.2009 at 00:22
"Mermaid: Bart, where did you get that?"

Pulled it out of my head. Yes, I know it was a bit too harsh, but being honest, I don't find Anette to be a very good choice to sing in this band. Why, you ask? Because Anette is simply not into rock, she's a pop singer. She looks and sounds like one. I think that when she wears a flowery pink dress in a NW concert, she shows that she does not care or respect the fact that Nightwish is metal, and when she's a huge part of NW, she should be metal too, but no. I hoped to see someone like Helena Haaparanta as the new NW singer, but they did the very thing I feared when they were looking for a new singer. They chose a popstar, who shows no respect at all for the genre, which NW is all about.

Bart wrote on 27.06.2009 at 11:01
@my dear mermaid: yes in that articles tarja was mentionned but not in this one so your comments are not judicious. But honey, il love NW (with Tarja and with Anette) and I'm tired of your comments so goodbye, be upset for details and have fun while you're critizing.

Elise wrote on 27.06.2009 at 13:43
Ok, people, I'm really confused....
1) Why does Ms. Olzon decided to speak once again about that situation in Belo Horizonte, that took place in November 2008, and now it is already June 2009?
Why didn't she make such comments earlier - she had lots of opportunities before, but there were only three different versions from NW members, and one of them was insulting to Brazilian fans and not even true!
2) "But things don't always go like in the movies. In a community there are always people you get along better than with others"
What is that supposed to mean and why is she saying that? She actualy hints that she doesn't seem to get along perfectly with everyone in the band.
3)"We don't have to love everyone as long as we remember to respect and understand each other with the best of our abilities."
Love everyone? Respect? So who doesn't love who, but trying to respect in that band according to her words?

Nina wrote on 28.06.2009 at 02:19
Obviously her collapse wasn't a wake-up call for the band,because then they would decide to replace her with a professional,with someone with experience with heavy touring.

But she is right,it was a wake-up call.Not for the band; for the fans,especially blindfolded ones who were thinking that everything is pink and wonderful and they are sooooo happy together and eventually,Tarja was the bitch for not getting along with their management and heavy touring.

Good morning blindfolded fans.I hope you woke up.

Legeon wrote on 28.06.2009 at 13:24
@Mermaid
"He said that with new vocalist they would manage 2 hours of show, and not just one hour like with Turunen,
he said that new vocalist will bring much more artistic oportunities (and Marco said that, too) because of versatility of her voice
and basically he gave a lot of hints leading you to persuasion that Tarja was way too pampered and diificult and diva to do a real job as their singer. "

He never said these things ;) (well maybe Marco said that thing about versatility) ,,or at least not in the same contest you are putting them. Tuomas never fucking ever said Anette is better than Tarja as vocalist or as anything else. He has complained that in the last year Tarja was different and all the crap we heard but lately he just said that (this was said at the beginning of the tour) the situation in the band was like at it's best with Tarja. He never said "ahah the new singer is far better than Tarja" . What Marco meant with "more down-to-earth" was referred to her stage presence..and it's true. Tarja was more mystical on stage than Anette.
So let's at least give him credit that he never said "Anette is better than Tarja" , but kept saying how good she was as singer in NW. They never denied her talent.

In the last documentary (the one made for Made in HK) , Tuomas even said he thought about quitting the band..even recently. This means the situation is a bit fucked up, because things begun bigger and bigger and always hard to manage. It happens in every band. But Nightwish have been so dumb to repeat the same mistakes, too much touring, less comunication.
Now the situation seems improved because they are taking it slow, Anette has her own manager. (same old song, right? )
But those different declarations we heard about the BH incident are just one of the proof that the comunication inside this band is poor. They couldn't come out and tell the truth for obvious reasons..so they came out with 3 different statements. Imo it was a combination of many things which lead to her breakdown on stage, and the fact there were problems in the band, and maybe the pressure she felt touring in South America (where fans sometimes overreact in both positive and negative ways). Why she's coming up with this issue again? Either because Anette is too open (and a bit naive) to just shut up, either because the press once more is looking for juicy stuff and NW have to talk about something in interviews. There is indeed too much drama surrounding the band since the open letter.
So..to answer to Legeon..I don't think it's once again a big conjuraction towards Tarja as you seem to think. I don't think he means to insult Tarja or Tarja fans in general. Sadly there are still idiots who show up at their concerts being disrespectful in Tarja's name lol. Maybe it was not the case in BH, but it happens .

I'm not sure of the future of the band...I smell problems, I don't wanna see too much into things and statements which can be taken out of proportions. But , I can't deny there seems to be still some problems in the band. I hope they can solve them.

@Legeon..I don't see it like this..they were originally friends, and I think the guys still are. Shit in the band happened, they did many mistakes which in the long run ruined also the friendship and shadowed a bit the music. I mean..being friends doesn't mean you see yourself everyday, even if they don't see themselves in the free time..I don't think they are not friends.
And I still think Tuomas goes on also for the music although NW became also a business and a main job for him (just like every big band). They disappointed me for many things, but I don't make it so tragic honestly. They are not the same anymore, but one has also to look at the big picture in my opinion. They started as a genuine naive band..the gained more and more success which brought some consequences.

@The Seer..Tuomas didn't say that because he meant Anette was officially censored. He said that she had some stress so they took it easy with the interviews. As you can see she gave interviews later.

@Carolina..I completely agree with you!

Phantom wrote on 28.06.2009 at 13:42
I think NW has too many problems right now. They need either to communicate better between each other and solve them or just quit . I really do not like what they are becoming now.
This Anette's interview rises too many question. Not nice questions.
@ Nina. I pretty much agree with you.

Selma wrote on 28.06.2009 at 19:40
Me said: "One nw member want to leave the band, and one will be kicked out soon.

Only a tip."

The one to be kicked is without doubt Anette. But WHO wants to leave? Is it maybe Emppu? He was the only one who had guilty conscience about the way Tarja was fired.

Nina said: "Ok, people, I'm really confused....
1) Why does Ms. Olzon decided to speak once again about that situation in Belo Horizonte, that took place in November 2008, and now it is already June 2009? "

She knows her days in Nightwish are counted and she desperately needs attention. Did you check her blog? She posts there couple of times per day stuff like this:

"First I clean my face with two great cleansers:
Pre-cleanse and special cleansing gel, both from Dermalogica.
Then to avoid tired and puffy eyes, I take some Depuffing gel from Benefit"

Btw she never mentions Nightwish in her blog. Obviously EVERYTHING in her life (schnitzels, cats, shoes, cleansing gels...) is more important than "that band", as she always used to refer them.

TheSeer wrote on 28.06.2009 at 20:51
After reading and delving so deeply into each situation and slight about this band through the past four or five years, my respect for them has declined some what just because of the unprofessionalism of how everything has been taken care of, I'm not going to list, everyone knows what I'm talking about. All I can say is that my reaction to their music now is much diffrent then when I first started listening to them. They need to understand that their actions don't only showcase how we see them as people, but its also has a role in their music as well at least what we think of it in a way.Its hard to listen to their music any more knowing all the situations that the band has went though.The Drama King(Tuomas) and Queen (Anette) try so hard to tell us all that it is still about the music, obviously that is not true I don't care what anyone thinks. I really could care less at this point what Anette does or why this or that happend or why they lied, every artistic triumph they have claimed has become so easily clouded by the media, and that really is sad knowing how great they are. I agree that Tuomas tries very hard to come off as innocent and how we are all supposed to believe Tarja is such an awful person. As I see it, they won't be together much longer if they continue how they are. All the controversy has left a bad taste in my mouth from the beginning and from then till now I have lost intrest so quickly, I know that I'm not the only one, you may say I'm not a true fan, that if I was, I need to agree with what Nightwish does all the time and stick by their sides through thick and thin. I know the diffrence between right and wrong, there is alot more wrong on their side then right and whether they decide they are going to change is their descision. I just hope they make the right one soon, so we can truley beleive in the music that used to be so inspiring.

Meghan wrote on 28.06.2009 at 21:16
""Until that gig (Belo Horizonte) I managed to be pretty much perfect"
LOL. How modest she is. Pretty much perfect, uh-huh. She should consider a new career as comedian :D

Hollenthon wrote on 28.06.2009 at 21:26
"In a community there are always people you get along better than with others. We don't have to love everyone as long as we remember to respect and understand each other with the best of our abilities"

Wonder who she's referring to?

Z wrote on 29.06.2009 at 00:22
Erm ... They (especially Marco, but also Tuomas) keep emphasising how supposedly Tarja's voice is so cold and over the top and Anette's voice much warmer, easier on the ears, more emotional, and Anette a more down-to-earth and "metal" singer who fits the band and the music so much better. Presumably, she is also not naive (read: she believes and obeys everything Tuomas says). And that's what pisses me off most.

I don't hate Anette, of course. I just don't like her or new NW at all. I'm put off by everything about it, the songwriting, the lyrics, the sound, the style, the voices (Marco's too), the image, the visual style, the press photos, the cover art, the shows, the costumes, the interviews, everything. That said, I have come to like the albums made after Sami's departure less. Oceanborn was the zenith of Nightwish, every further release was a (small, but noticeable) drop in quality. CC and Once were already too much influenced by soundtracks and pop, and turned out not to hold up as well as the older albums. Also, I don't like Marco's voice that much anymore (he's good when he has small parts within a song, else not), especially since I discovered Russell Allen from Symphony X who has a similar voice but is a superior singer and performer.

I think that the rot has set in long before Tarja's departure, and apparently, Tuomas is the person mainly responsible for this, steering his band in a more and more commercial direction and abandoning the distinctive "classical" sound. Yes, bands do and can change their style, but it is easy to spot when a band is selling out, when the style is watered down and becoming more and more mass-compatible, losing its distinctiveness and edge, and the band their artistic ambitions. It's hard to admit for a devoted fan, and it was hard for me too, but that's exactly what happened with Nightwish.

As for Anette, when you read her blog you get the distinct impression of a Nightwish fangirl in a body twice their usual age. She comes across as immature and uncultured. Quite the opposite of Tarja. Anette has nothing more to offer than being (supposedly) nice and sweet. But Tarja is every bit as nice and sweet, and I have no actual reason to think she was ever different. I don't believe the propaganda anymore at all.

I'm not 100% happy with the music Tarja is making now, but I like it quite a lot, and I see the will to make quality music, and in my eyes she succeeds. I'm a fan of her band and only wish she would apply less restraint and be even more ambitious. (But already now, her music becomes better with each listening and that's more I can say about Nightwish's music which sounds hollow, not genuine, soulless and superficial to me.) People should stop viewing her as a mere vocalist dependent on others to lead the way. In fact, she's always been self-directed.

There's something to say in favour of Anette, namely that she has at least enough intelligence that she begins to realise that her bandmates are a bunch of infantile hypocrites. To some extent, she is a victim of their greed and their ambition to tour as much as possible, regardless of if they burn their singer out or themselves. (The male members of the band are obviously alcoholics, as so many famous musicians are, who compensate the stress and unhealthy lifestyle with all kinds of addictions, and they do eventually take their toll. Just think of Michael Jackson.) The endless touring was the bone of contention not only with Tarja, but also with Sami. And it's this attitude and falsity of the boys in the band that keeps me enraged. Also, the fact that many fans keep painting Marcelo as the villain and propagating their prejudice. Else, I would just move on.

Almagest wrote on 29.06.2009 at 02:57
Tuomas has always painted Tarja as a drama queen, but obviously the drama king is really him, as you say! Also, it annoys me how they criticise Tarja for being distant at concerts when that is simply what Tuomas told her to be. Anette, in comparison, does not even have stage presence.

It is easy to see that Anette's own website, including a fancy logo, and a blog, is a preparation for her solo career. In Tarja's case, it was exactly the same. However, being nice alone is a very thin footing for a career.

Almagest wrote on 29.06.2009 at 03:11
I agree with Hollenthon, but seriously, thats a bit stupid to say about yourself when theres alot of stuff behind her that went on before the ill-fated Belo Horizonte gig that caused problems in the band.

Meghan wrote on 29.06.2009 at 03:30
@ Meghan

I completely agree!!!

James wrote on 29.06.2009 at 04:38
@ Almagest

"Also, I don't like Marco's voice that much anymore (he's good when he has small parts within a song, else not), especially since I discovered Russell Allen from Symphony X who has a similar voice but is a superior singer and performer."

I personally think Marco is better than Allen. Allen is amazing, no question, but I think what Marco lacks in skills, he makes up for it emotion and uniqueness. I think his voice is more distinct that Allen's and I personally like it better. Tarot is an amazing band and he shines far further in that band than he ever did in NW IMO.

But I agree with you about the decline in quality of NW's albums. It is evident the direction they want to go musically..., but I hope they get their act together before everything self-destructs...:p

James wrote on 29.06.2009 at 06:39
"Anette reveals in the interview how the touring-life came to her as a bit of a surprise."
She was old enough, when she joined the famous band, to understand that this tour life is not a piece of cake, and yet she reacts like she thought it would be an endless holiday with no sweat at all. Pretty naive for a woman who has a child and was 35-36 when she joined the band.

"Until that gig (Belo Horizonte) I managed to be pretty much perfect."
What @Hollenthon,Meghan said. It is really stupid to say such things, especially for an adult woman, not a teenage girl, but frankly speaking after reading some of her interviews and her blog I came to the conslusion that lots of her reactions or way of thinking are kinda immature.
And the fact that she can't even move on from this BH gig thing, which was so long ago already, is really lame. It is like she wants extra attention or even pity.

"In a community there are always people you get along better than with others. We don't have to love everyone as long as we remember to respect and understand each other with the best of our abilities."
Somebody doesn't love her in the band or it is she who doesn't love somebody in the band? Very strange thing to say. But maybe she wanted us to guess, lol.

Norman wrote on 29.06.2009 at 10:37
@Almagest
"They (especially Marco, but also Tuomas) keep emphasising how supposedly Tarja's voice is so cold and over the top and Anette's voice much warmer, easier on the ears, more emotional, and Anette a more down-to-earth and "metal" singer who fits the band and the music so much better. Presumably, she is also not naive (read: she believes and obeys everything Tuomas says)"

That's sooo untrue... Tuomas has always praised Tarja's vocals and abilities of interpretating Nightwish songs even when Anette is in the band . The "cold" vs "warm" thing it's just a way to describe their voices ..which is true. And it doesn't mean that Anette is better than Tarja. He means she has a different approach..Tarja was more mystical but still emotional, Anette is more downtoearth. Of course you bashers like to twist things in order to please your own theories. But I can count you numerous interviews in which Tuomas has always praised Tarja's talent...and you can say how much he sucks for different ways but at least give him credit for this because he genuinely loved Tarja's voice.
And above all...he never ever said Anette's voice is more emotional. It's fans who are making these comparisons.
Just an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_kHaW6fL7c

And Tuomas didn't tell Tarja to be cold and distant..and neither he's complaining now, c'mon! I can't believe..I mean you people can complain about everything (Im the first one complaining about how they acted) but they never complained about Tarja's performances. Never! I read possibly every single NW and Tarja's interviews in the latest years..so I know what Im talking about. On the contrary..not because I want to speak bad of Tarja (she has every right to talk, so) , Tarja is the one still complaining of her ex band mates..telling how much her new band is professional and loyal, it seems almost like she wants to say "not like those bunch of drunk idiots of NW" . Well I'm think that she perhaps thinks like that..still she's still playing the music of "the drunk idiots" at her concerts. So at least she could stop with these constant hints, I mean if she didn't like Tuomas so much..why she is still complaining about how "drunk ass face" he is. Seems like they are both bitching at each others sometimes.
So Almagest....be objective for once..without twisting what you read.

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 11:03
By the way...someone has read the entire article fo a chance? or you just making conclusions based on quotes taken out of contest? You can find it here (translated by Afrodite)
http://www.nightwish.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39876&st=650&start=650

Also that sentence of "In a community there are always people you get along better than with others. We don't have to love everyone as long as we remember to respect..."
I don't see anything particularly suspicious..she's just saying that they had discussions/fights (as we already knew) and she can't get along perfectly with everyone..I mean, is that so absurd and unexpected that you all wonder?

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 11:08
@Almagest...Marco has made some hints that Anette is more versatile and could bring more artistic opportunities..I can't remember the exact quote. But not Tuomas for sure.

Marco said this for example:
BraveWords.com: Comparing Tarja and Annette, what is the difference in feeling when you are on stage with either of them?

Hietala: "Well, with Tarja the thing was that she had the stage persona which required more distance. Annette is more of a walker, more down to earth. She goes around and talks to people and tries to get them going. So those are definite differences. And I don?t want to complain about either: Tarja did what was suitable for her, it fitted her style, it fitted her persona. Annette does what she knows how to do and what she is confident with. And for me those things work."

so...you really think he's saying Anette is better? he's just telling their different approaches...and what Tarja did suited her. So much about complaining about Tarja stage presence !

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 11:15
"And Tuomas didn't tell Tarja to be cold and distant"

I was going to add here....they both agreed that Marco would have taken the role of "entertainer", talking to the public and so on...while Tarja kept a more mystical appearence

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 11:17
For the record...I prefer Tarja by the way..I'm not talking into a perspective of a "Anetteholic" lol or a "Tuomasholic"

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 11:33
@Tarja is the one still complaining of her ex band mates..telling how much her new band is professional and loyal, it seems almost like she wants to say "not like those bunch of drunk idiots of NW" @
It only seems to you or she really says exactly those words, lol ? If it only seems to you than you are not better than Almagest, also speak about stuff which seems to.

@she is still complaining about how "drunk ass face" he is@
In what recent interviews she said that?

@I don't see anything particularly suspicious..she's just saying that they had discussions/fights (as we already knew) and she can't get along perfectly with everyone..I mean, is that so absurd and unexpected that you all wonder? @
Yep, it is really unexpected -cause they were telling all the time how HAPPY they are together, and now out of the sudden this comments "not so happy and perfect together".

Pam wrote on 29.06.2009 at 11:36
@Pam...it seems, because those are just hints. She didn't openly said "NW guys were unprofessional and drunkards". She said "no more ass faces around" in her blog comparing her new touring life with the previous(which might be interpretated in different ways) . The difference is that Im not complaining about that. She can even say openly "fuck you" to Tuomas since she has every right to do . Still Tarja now is still playing NW songs (and again, nothing wrong, she has the right to play them) , and recognized how important Nightwish were in her career. So I'm actually surprised that her diehard fans don't give credit to them.
Tuomas objectively didn't talk bad stuff about Tarja VOCALS and PERFORMANCES, so that's why I was answering. And I pointed out that sometimes both parts bitched about each others (Tarja in a more discreet way at least..that's why Im surprised that from time to time I read hints, even now, about how much she was not happy in Nightwish) .

Pam then you didn't follow the thing...originally they were saying things were great..but not after South America tour..they even talked about their crisis in the documentary in Made in Hong Kong..that's why I said it's nothing new.

The Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 12:12
@Phantom
"it seems, because those are just hints. She didn't openly said "NW guys were unprofessional and drunkards". She said "no more ass faces around" in her blog comparing her new touring life with the previous(which might be interpretated in different ways)"

But yet again those are just hints from your point of you (or somebody else's). In other words, Marco's recent interview also has lines which can be easily seen by somebody as hints to the thing that Tarja was distant meaning unemotional, cold, etc. in his opinion :). You can say you read between the lines of Tarja's words but another person also would say he/she read between the lines of Marco's words. You are equal with each other.
You see, you can't say that those things can/can't be proved if you look at them such hint-like way :)

"And I pointed out that sometimes both parts bitched about each others (Tarja in a more discreet way at least..that's why Im surprised that from time to time I read hints, even now, about how much she was not happy in Nightwish) "

And again those hints. Hints are mostly subjective, not objective. But you were asking other people to be objective, and you yourself was operating in the subjective hint-like way of judging stuff. I mean you are a reasonable guy as I see, no doubts, but it isn't possible or not fair to demand "objectivness" from others if you yourself walk the same path :)

"She said "no more ass faces around" in her blog comparing her new touring life with the previous(which might be interpretated in different ways)"

Yep, she said that once I know. It was in her blog post on 1.12.2007 date. After it, as far as I know cause I do not follow her blog entries a lot, there were no mentions by her of these "ass faces ", she just got over it. So it wasn't very "objective" of you to say that "she is still complaining about how "drunk ass face" he is", cause she is not anymore, was it? ;)

BTW, Tuomas ONCE said in interview that "Ok, this whole thing with Tarja really sucks? - in connection of writting song on this subject :P

here: http://usaprogmusic.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=137&Itemid=45

"Pam then you didn't follow the thing...originally they were saying things were great..but not after South America tour..they even talked about their crisis in the documentary in Made in Hong Kong..that's why I said it's nothing new."

They talked in the documentary, yes, but still that interview with Annette's words emphasises the obvious problems the band have and quite serious ones. So, after she herself put it THAT way ,it was, I'm afraid new and it easily can be undrstood that lots of people paid attention to it.

Pam wrote on 29.06.2009 at 13:15
@Pam
"But yet again those are just hints from your point of you (or somebody else's). In other words, Marco's recent interview also has lines which can be easily seen by somebody as hints to the thing that Tarja was distant meaning unemotional, cold, etc. in his opinion :). You can say you read between the lines of Tarja's words but another person also would say he/she read between the lines of Marco's words. You are equal with each other. "

Apart that I was talking mainly about Tuomas. Not Marco. But then again..even Marco was referring to Tarja's stage presence and not in a negative way (at least in the article I quoted) . I mean, you can't say that it's not true if you compare Anette stage presence with Tarja's..it's just very different. But it's not something negative for Tarja.
I said that objectively TUOMAS has never told preferences between the two, always saying they were different but equally good (and I know many people think "Tarja is better than Anette", apart from the fact most of the time it's a sterile discussion..Tuomas can't say "yeah our old singer was better" lol ) .
And third..I didn't judge Tarja giving hints...which were pretty clear not just in that blog entry (look at the song Enough for example..it's cristal clear even if she didn't admit it) . Im not saying "Tarja sucks because she complains"...I mentioned that because if we have to talk about hints and twisted interpretations of the interviews..then let's talk also about what Tarja said. Just to be fair. I know that for some of you she's untouchable, and indeed she behaved much better in some occasions. Got my point? ;)
I already said that I prefer Tarja and I have an absolutely neutral opinion regarding the split and all the shit..so I'm not a Tarja or Marcelo basher.

"BTW, Tuomas ONCE said in interview that "Ok, this whole thing with Tarja really sucks? - in connection of writting song on this subject :P "

Im not sure if I got what you mean...of course the whole period for him sucked lol . I mean, it was quite clear...

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 15:08
Also, Marco and Tuomas know very well that the hardcore fans would pick up on every little hint they delivered and use it to bash Tarja. They play cheerleaders without saying anything really bad about her, because after all it can only be read between the lines. They can rely on their hardcore fans to finish the dirty work.

I know that Tarja dropped some hints herself, even if they were more subtle, but they came only later. I was surprised about her acerbity myself, and the lyrics of Enough can be read in the same way, as well as her pointed lack of comments about new Nightwish, but come on, how can she not be bitter when she and in particular her husband were character assassined in public? She doesn't really need to cheer her fans on and set them up against Nightwish, because many of them are already very disappointed and angry.

As for Marco, I only gave my own opinion, of course. I have seen Russell live and he SLAAAYS. He's really funny to boot. Marco's voice, more often than not, makes me cringe. I don't know where he sounds more distinct or emotional (come on, that's a lame argument, Tarja haters say that she has no emotion either), but if he does, I'll go for the technically better voice, I can do without emotion or distinctivity then.

Of course Tuomas did not literally tell Tarja to be distant, but to leave the audience interaction to Marco so she can retain that "mystical" image. But now she is critised for being distant and not "metal" at the time in Nightwish.

Almagest wrote on 29.06.2009 at 16:21
to Phantom: what I wrote here WAS told by Maestro - I will try to find the exact interview where he mentioned that new singer will deliver 2 hours instead what "we have been able to do with Turunen".

Keep coming to this page, I will find that interview and leave you a link.

I remember that queite precisely, because it was first time he refered to her as to Turunen. And it souded promising (2 hours!)

mermaid wrote on 29.06.2009 at 16:28
Oh, and I never said anything bad about Nightwish as they used to be in the olden times, quite the opposite, I have deep respect for their work back then. They may not have been the most skilled and accomplished band ever (and honestly, their music was never THAT original or ingenious either) but they did more than make up for it with passion. I know that Tarja has repeatedly voiced her respect for the band's work back then, too. So why should she not continue performing the songs she loves?

But when Jukka said he could not even play the songs from Oceanborn because they are so fast, I was appalled. Aren't musicians supposed to become better with time and practice? Nightwish, as they are now, are patently a mere shadow of their former days of glory.

Almagest wrote on 29.06.2009 at 16:33
to: Hollenthon, Megan

so very true...

mermaid wrote on 29.06.2009 at 17:19
Guys,

I would like you to think for one minute on a man, who just passed and who was a great artist.
He never cried on stage, never fainted, never run off stage, never forgot his lyrics, never forgot how to play his songs.

Megastar as he was, he was never called "Maestro". He never criticized other people cyrics, not to mentioned that he never labelled it as "a crap".

He never called himself an "Oceansoul", never said he was "shy", though you might think he used to behave like quite a shy person.

He never fired any person by open letter (though he fierd few).
He never though he was giving his fans few more years of life by talking to them.
Neither he run a webpage to share his last shoppings and receipes.

I am just trying to give you some perspective here.

Some of you would say he was excentric, too, and in a way he was.
But if it comes to HIS MUSIC he was PROFESSIONAL.

mermaid wrote on 29.06.2009 at 17:52
@Almagest...I still fail to remember some concrete examples in which Holopainen (not Hietala) said Anette vocals and stage approach is actually BETTER than Tarja. ;) I'm not talking about all the "diva" thing and accusations he made after the split. I'm talking about vocals and performances.
He must be a crazy lunatic to say she was worse and then to prais her sayin he's always adored her voice and that "the fire was burning between her voice and his songs" lol. I suppose he has not to convince the Tarjaholics, since he perfectly knows they hate him :D .
I never said that Tarja shouldn't perform NW songs , never ;) .

@mermaid..ok. I stand behind what I think though..that he never complained about Tarja' s performance and vocals. And by the way..he also said once that Anette has not an incredibly unique voice and that technically she's not the best singer. We are fair, lol. So what I should conclude? That from time to time he also makes some "anti-Anette" campaign just for a couple of words like that. What a crazy asshole :D

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 17:59
Regarding the hardcore fans....some are fanatics, so no wonder they tend to approve and defend every thing their favourite artist did. So if he said those things in the letter, clearly the fanatics will hate Tarja forever. Same goes for fanatic Tarja's fans who worship everything she does. Luckyly there are also people who think with their own brain.
I love both Nightwish and Tarja..and I don't think they always made positive choices...especially NW regarding the split, Tarja regarding some stuff concerning her solo career.

Phantom wrote on 29.06.2009 at 18:08
@ Almagest

You are right. Allen does rule live (as does Symphony X). But liking Allen better than Marco is a matter of taste anyways. They are both great vocalists for their bands. Even though you don't like his voice, you can't deny Marco's talent. I don't know how he makes you cringe because he is better than 99% of the vocalists in metal today. Most metal bands scream or growl nowadays (unless it's power metal) and it is hard to find bands with good vocalists (like Symphony X, Tarot, or even NW). Well I enjoy them both and I think they are both the best vocalists in metal today. So no sense in arguing. :)

Oh and btw, how do you know that Jukka said that he could not play the songs off of Oceanborn? I am curious.

James wrote on 29.06.2009 at 18:37
Phantom: Even if Tuomas may not have said such things, Marco did, and it's far too easy for Tuomas to leave Marco to say what he really wants to communicate to the fans even though I'm sure that Tuomas has not really changed his opinions from the days where he said something like "Tarja always manages to convey the intentions behind my songs perfectly even if she does not fully understand what the lyrics are supposed to mean".

I'm not a Tarja fanatic either, I don't love everything from her solo career and I don't know what to make out of her sudden disdain for European metal (supposedly "too happy" - lolwut? Wintersun, Tristania, Opeth are European metal too, not to mention the really extreme stuff, it's not all just power metal) and her newfound love for American metal (whether nu metal, alternative or thrash, though probably not the American prog scene). I don't want to turn her music to turn into an overly commercial direction as well, the Evanescence-ification of the scene makes me sick. I know her band can do so much more interesting music. But I'll wait until her new album is out before I judge.

Angra is an example for a band that makes very accessible music, not overly complex or experimental, much like Nightwish (though much more guitar-oriented), and still challenging for both musicians and listeners. But their music is too "happy" sounding, I guess :D Edenbridge are really underrated too (don't get me started on the "NW clone" issue, argh). Epica and After Forever manage (or managed, respectively) to combine the symphonic aspect with aggressive, guitar-driven metal just fine and not only is their music ambitious and dark, but so are their concepts and lyrics. Haggard have carved their unique niche with their orchestra-band, influences from early music and concept albums based on historical subjects. Therion did an amazing job in re-inventing themselves (again! after so many years and twists and turns) on Gothic Kabbalah. Why won't Tarja or Tuomas take some hints from there? Not like in copying of course, but in adopting a similar artistic approach. I'm sure that the albums would still sell like hotcakes. There's a lot to be learned from the bands that the more close-minded Nightwish fans tend to look to as copycats (even if many of them are far from it, and calling them copycats gets the facts wrong).

About Michael Jackson, I've said that from his own perspective, his life was a bigger tragedy than his death - it's a shame that a highly talented, original and hard-working musician like him never really got what he desired, and deserved, not fame and riches but simply being a real, private person from time to time at least. The pressure he was under from childhood on must have been gruelling, and I view him as a victim of his father's ambition and the entertainment industry's ruthlessness. If Tarja has recognised one thing correctly, then that suffering is a price not worth paying for superstar status.

Almagest wrote on 29.06.2009 at 19:45
@ mermaid: nice one.

Inspired by mermaid,i would like to make a comparison too,this time with a metal band.

Iron Maiden.

A band that never abandoned fans,a band that never left people during a show "for personal issues".
A band that never used media and tabloid stories to base its fame on.
A band that never created any scandals regarding ex-members.
A band that when it comes to fans at live shows,they say "the anxiety is not be good for the crowd,but as good AS the crowd"(Dickinson's exact words).
A band that always ignore their personal issues and exhaust,in order to deliver one hell of a show.
A band whose fans were never called "Blaze haters" or "not true Maiden fans" for not liking Blaze and preferring Bruce.

A band that bases its fame and success after 3 decades on making quality music,respecting their fans and delivering exceptional shows.
A band with members so humble and quiet,that if you try to call Steve Harris "maestro" he will certainly deny it with passion.And this band has offered in music SO MUCH MORE than NW.

Finally,a band that acts PROFESSIONALLY.

But are NW fans that insist how much of professionals and "only for the music" NW are.

Legeon wrote on 29.06.2009 at 20:03
Nina said: "3)"We don't have to love everyone as long as we remember to respect and understand each other with the best of our abilities."
Love everyone? Respect? So who doesn't love who, but trying to respect in that band according to her words? "

Not Emppu. He sent Anette birthday greeting. I saw it in her Blog (capital B is not a coincidence :-p). It might be that Emppu is the only one in Nightwish whom Anette is not "trying to respect". Btw, I still wonder WHO wants to leave Nightwish?

Phantom said: "Tarja is the one still complaining of her ex band mates..telling how much her new band is professional and loyal, it seems almost like she wants to say "not like those bunch of drunk idiots of NW" ."

I disagree. She has every right to praise her band. She might (and probably) think what you said about NW but thinking is NOT complaining.

Phantom said: "she is still complaining about how "drunk ass face" he is"

Tarja never said anything about Tuomas in the interviews (except for "I wish them all the best"). She did however "complained" about him in her song Enough. But not about being "drunk ass face" lol. That is the LAST thing that bothers her when it comes to Tuomas. Read Enough lyrics (here I go with lyrics again, sorry :-p) and you'll see that her accusations to Tuomas are MUCH more serious than him being "a drunk ass face"! ;-)

ENOUGH

Ego selfish Prima Donna
Dancing in your poisoned cage
Thinking that your conscience's clearer
If you drink your dreams away

Feed your anger to the devil
In your self built wishing well
Take a swim in muddy waters
All the dirt will leave a trail

Had enough symphonies of sorrow
The beasts of prey a breath away
Masterpiece of treachery

Build a wall and make me crumble
Just because I am in love
Don't you cry now look at all the
Dolls and toys that you have got

Smashed the mirror of perversion
With the dagger that you made
Mirror, mirror, is there someone
who can make your day today?

Had enough symphonies of sorrow
The beasts of prey a breath away
I've had enough symphonies of sorrow
Beasts of prey one breath away
Masterpiece of treachery

Kept my thoughts buried in a box
With each shot I still kept it locked
You drew a play written with my blood
Went ahead just to feed the lot

TheSeer wrote on 29.06.2009 at 20:14
@ TheSeer

Right. I never heard Tarja say anything poor or low about NW after she left (except explaining her feelings at the press conference directly after the letter). She has handled things right and NW has chosen to be silly with saying things that are going to end up hurting them. NW still has not moved on from 2005, and it is obvious.

Yeah, Emppu always seems to be the one who thinks differently from the rest of the group. I have noticed that Anette is closer to him than the rest of the band. The same with Tarja. During live shows, she would have more fun around Emppu than the others. I wonder if its because of his enlightening spirit (b/c he has a lot of energy) or his attitude toward the rest of NW. However, he doesn't seem to hate NW either. But yes, he had some resentment about the way NW fired Tarja though, and he may have lost some respect for Tuomas and NW for that perhaps. That is a possibility but I am not sure. Have you ever noticed that he rarely talks to anyone, especially the media. You never hear him in any discussion on the Internet about anything except for good things about him. I respect him most in the band right now because he has chosen to take a more neutral road, but he may get fed up if things get worse.

If any member of NW were to quit first, it would defenately be Anette for sure, but Emppu is second in line if things persist.

James wrote on 29.06.2009 at 21:08
James: Jukka said that once on Nightmail, when he was asked about Devil & the Deep Dark Ocean, but forgive me that I can't be bothered to dig through the entire Nightmail archive.

I don't like Marco's voice in Wish I Had An Angel, it annoys me (but then, the whole song annoys me), or in The Phantom of the Opera, where he sounds sloppy and as if he was drunk - well, he seems to be drunk most of the time anyway and people tell me that his live performances have deteriorated considerably.

As for harsh vocals, you seem to be just like I used to be, because I used to detest them for many years. But now I've grown to like them. It's not like growlers can't sing; in fact, bad singers are bad growlers, too. It's just a particular style of singing (there is even a traditional singing style in Central Asia that sounds similar: Kargyraa). There are still plenty of great clean singers in metal, anyway, and several of my favourite vocalists actually do both harsh and clean vocals!

By the way, there are bands with harsh vocals whose music is essentially power metal apart from that :P

Almagest wrote on 29.06.2009 at 21:34
"But then again..even Marco was referring to Tarja's stage presence and not in a negative way (at least in the article I quoted) "

But as I said the words he said in this interview can be easily taken as hints with his choice of "distant" word along with his choice to give a broad comment instead of saying "past is past, she was good (or ok), new vocalist is good. Next question please". You say that you can see hints in Tarja's comments or interviews because there are"reasons" for it or something, because you can look at it from two sides, etc. But the same apply to that Marco's interview. He is a big guy with brains (only he washes them down with booze too often, but still I think he has mind in operational state :P), so he CAN choose words and think them over to describe stuff.
By the way, when you did it, you chose a very good one - "mystical", a very good way to characterize, very succinct and doesn't leave too much space to interpret. But he used that "distant" word - much broader word in its sense, with far more ways to interpret it. Marco is not naive, sorry, I would never believe that he didn't understand a wee bit that by using that kind of characteristics he would give more sticks to the fire, and that it would surely rise impression that in his opinion Tarja was distant=Tarja was cold to fans or unemotional.
So, those who say they see hints, submessages in his interviews are unfortunately right, cause yeah, he left enough space for it. You can't say they are totally wrong in seeing that, but you are so totally right when you interpret hints and see submessages in Tarja's comments, interviews, etc, I'm sorry. Reality dictates here.

"pretty clear not just in that blog entry (look at the song Enough for example..it's cristal clear even if she didn't admit it)"

Did I deny anything about "Enough" song? I think I didn't.
So, this song is a clear answer to songs like BBB and MPG and to damage those songs did to Turunen and her husband. It is not an attempt to "complain once more with no reason". Why didn't she put it from the beginning to her solo album and released it later?
Well, did she knew, when mixing, gathering and composing material for her solo album that there would be/there were songs like BBB and MPG on the new NW album, did she hear them and read the lyrics? Well, some her fans think she is Divine or something that is SO stupid, but I'm realistic, I do not think she has/had magical powers to forsee at that time the tracklist of future NW album and to know all the lyrics in it and what some of the songs were going to be about. I also doubt Tuomas called her, before DPP was released and she listened to it (she said she listened to the album at some point), and read the lyrics to her through the phone out loud ,lol. And I do not think she could forsee that BBB (song about her) would be a single, with video clip and would be aired on the radio. She is not THAT wise, you know, lol.
So.... it is personal matter either to judge her for making "this answer" or bash her for it, cause Tuomas is untouchable innocent darling. Frankly speaking, I didn't make up my mind yet what to think of that song. But it would be biased to say that she had no reason at all to release such song, as songs like BBB and MPG exist, and she was just complaining out of the blue.

"I know that for some of you she's untouchable, and indeed she behaved much better in some occasions. Got my point? ;) "

You are too fast on making conclusions, I'm afraid. I am not her fan. Not a fan of her solo career. I was very negative about her for a long time, but funny enough, it was thanks to her ex-band mate's interviews, actions, their new singer's behaviour and comments, that I began to find more respect for her as a professional and as a person. I saw she wasn't all that bad and that a lot of guilt is lying on the band, not on her, surprisingly. So, they actually worked for Tarja's favour here, lol.

"Im not sure if I got what you mean...of course the whole period for him sucked lol . I mean, it was quite clear..."

I meant that Tuomas made negative comments and complained regarding the time with Tarja or connected with her. Not only in the open letter or his lyrics, but also in interviews. Wanted to remind you that. :))

Pam wrote on 29.06.2009 at 23:05
Come one, she again speaks about that incident. Everybody forgot about it already and she decided to attrack attention to it and her persona after six months time (((.
/Pretty much perfect/ lol
There is a virtue called modesty, but she doesn't seem to have it.
Oh nice, somebody is already doesn't love a lot somebody in that band and doesn't get along with somebody. Sweeeet. Two years together and already so much problems. Something is fishy with this band.

Corey wrote on 29.06.2009 at 23:27
All comments here show what the problem is: the discussion isn't about the music and especially the QUALITY of music anymore. It is about the group members and ex group members, their (possible or maybe) opinions, their behaviour and their character.
The cause for this ongoing discussion is the way, NW decided to split from Tarja Turunen and from there on try to explain and justify it. The past two years show nothing else but that NW is finished. All the things they do in these times (lack of quality in music, unprofessional behaviour, disrespecting fans with other personal opinions, bad performances, keeping the media machinery going with tasteless interviews and comments, ...) dig the hole on the graveyard even deeper.
I think many old and previous fans feel the same way I do: In the beginning of this "drama" there was a deep sadness and disappointment. Now there is only anger and disgust and the hope and wish that this mess will be finished soon.

ONCE I had a dream - and now it is definitely over and sold out.

Daniela wrote on 30.06.2009 at 00:04
James said: "Have you ever noticed that he rarely talks to anyone, especially the media."

Emppu doesn't speak to the media becuase he cannot speak English. :-p Btw, I wonder how he and Anette communicate? Maybe on Swedish because that's the second official language in Finland.

TheSeer wrote on 30.06.2009 at 01:10
"Everybody forgot about it already and she decided to attrack attention to it"

Well, I've read the original article at Soundi-magazine, and the interviewer asked, what she thinks about that night in B.H. and her collapse! And of course other things, too, the whole article was NOT about that case. Anette didn't decide to bring it up, the interviewer did! And if you've even been interviewed, then you know how they can choose what to write...

lapsonen wrote on 30.06.2009 at 02:34
@Pam..
I don't think he said those words in a negative light, however I give you credit that it could be interpretated in a bad way.

you sound like I'm criticizing Tarja ;). Seriously I'm not. I think for me it's totally ok that she wrote and published Enough. But I don't find it ok people complaining about NW releasing BBB and praising Enough. It seems just hypocrite to me. For me, they both had their reasons to write these songs.
I just take that as example when I said ..also Tarja is still "complaining" (which is not even the right word anyway, let's say she's still dropping some hints ;) ) . I honestly don't know why she wrote it just now..maybe she felt like doing it, I don't know. I don't think she just thought "ok NW wrote BBB , let's write this one to strike back" lol.
I was not referring to you personally when I said that for some people Tarja is untouchable (I'm referring in general to hardcore fangirls) . I have a lot of respect for her as artist and as person too. And I also changed idea a lot lately...now it's clear that the band sucked big time too.

"
I meant that Tuomas made negative comments and complained regarding the time with Tarja or connected with her. Not only in the open letter or his lyrics, but also in interviews. Wanted to remind you that."

Yes, of course he said many times in interviews that the last period with Tarja (year 2005) sucked . I was talking about him criticizing her as vocalist ;) . He said a lot of quite nasty things after the split in interviews..particularly towards Marcelo. Tuomas called him "serpent in his heaven" lol , and "mafia dude" who brainwashed the sweet Tarja lol. I thought that he was going crazy, I mean..I would have been more diplomatic at least.

@The Seer ..I explained it later that Im not judging Tarja for what she let understand of her time in Nightwish (that she wasn't happy ) ;) ..that's what I meant with those example I wrote. And of course "drunk ass face" was not to be taken literarly..I read the lyrics of Enough ;)

@Almagest. I'm waiting Tarja's next album, I'm sure she will put more effort in making it more personal, and who knows..she might surprise us .
As for NW, I 'd just like if they would quit a bit with this orchestra..add more keyboards and do more dark and complex songs. I don't see it happening though.

Phantom wrote on 30.06.2009 at 02:36
Your right. i do love Nightwish but sometimes they do seem a little fishy. i just hope this all doesnt lead to a break-up.

Hayley wrote on 30.06.2009 at 03:03
Nightwish drives on the philosophy that "More gigs, the better," but they don't have the communication to back that up, and I think that is what led to the 2005 mess.

As for the band's future, I am reserving judgement until their next album.

Almagest's comment that Oceanborn, NW's SECOND ALBUM was their zenith, proves the ultimate truth: make sure your finest work doesn't come early, because you will spend the rest of your career making music that people will not like because it doesn't match the standards of the previous albums. It happened with Metallica for Master of Puppets and now it's happening here. I never saw Once as "selling out." True, I love Oceanborn, but I think that CC had NW's most expressive and passionate lyrics, and Once had the most passionate music. "Ghost Love Score," "Creek Mary's Blood," "Dark Chest of Wonders," "Nemo," and many songs on that album are on my top songs for this band. True, songs like "Wish I Had An Angel" weigh down the album, but I stand firm on the belief that "Ghost Love Score" is the best song Nightwish has ever concieved.

As for DPP, I like "Poet and the Pendulum," "Master Passion Greed," "The Islander," and the orchestral versions of "Meadows of Heaven" and "Amarnth," but this is a very poor album. I hope things will change, but I don't count on it. It's so sad that this band is destroying itself because Tuomas has the potential to make this band one of the most beautiful groups ever.

My grandfather listens to classical music, and we have never been able to listen to music from my generation together... until Nightwish. This band has had a massive impact on my life, and to see them fall apart at the hands of interviews, tweets, and rumors is horrible.

Jeremy wrote on 30.06.2009 at 04:56
Talking so much about a girl like Anette is an abasement. Who care that ordinary girl who shines only for having slipped into the old shoes of Tarja ?!! that girl is lost and I'm sorry for her. Too much ego, lust, naivety, but not enough talents.
The magic Tarja and Tuomas were able to produce will never see the light again, nothing else matters and all the rest is meaningless to me. Nw did in ten years, wrote so good music compared to all those manufactured shitty bands around. They were unique, but good things never last forever. I really don't care if Tarja or NW is happier now, only counts that magic, all the rest will become worms' food in a short while. I don't care who actually is Tuomas or Tarja, who is the good, the bad, the ugly... they were just perfect together for that magic to happen, and very few in this world can achieve what they did between 1996 and 2005. Neither Nw with Anette nor Tarja alone will be able to overcome it, but I'm pretty sure Tarja, as an artist, will survive to NW.

ahahah wrote on 30.06.2009 at 05:00
SHUT UP !!!

Tongue wrote on 30.06.2009 at 05:03
I'm just thinking about Genesis ... they too switched their singer (Peter Gabriel is quite iconic and wore even more outrageous costumes than Tarja on stage, no wonder she befriended him ;) ) after eight years and went for a much more pop-oriented style. However, there still are some important differences: Gabriel was not fired and not character assassined either; the highway to the mainstream was taken more slowly, the contrast between Gabriel and Collins was not quite as stark, Collins had been in the band before, etc.

Almagest wrote on 30.06.2009 at 05:30
@ Almagest

Well I actually like some bands that do growl and scream. Bands like (old) In Flames, Kalmah, Wintersun, (old) Children of Bodom, and Behemoth for example are amazing bands and their vocals don't bother me at all. What I don't like is what metalcore and deathcore is doing to that genre. They are basically destroying real melodic death/black metal with their "emo" attitude and whinny crap. It's mostly the American metal scene I hate nowadays. That is why I have restored my faith in music from the metal of Finland.

I discovered NW only a year ago and the first song I heard from them is Bye Bye Beautiful, and I hated it at first. I thought the song was lame and dumb but it grew on me a little bit, but not enough to consider it one of my favorite songs though. It wasn't until I purchased Oceanborn which made me realize the true power of this band and what they really were capable of. The music of NW has gone WAY down over the years and this attitude is affecting the band's play and morale. Why do you think Emppu does what he does in Brother Firetribe? Because in NW, he doesn't show off his true potential anymore. Tuomas basically dumbed down the guitars and now Emppu has been put in as more of a backup to the overdone orchestra that is inserted in the mix now. I think NW sounded better without the orchestra IMO. Let's face it, NW could and has done much better. They really aren't trying as hard as they used to and it shows from all of their stupid comments and lust for media attention that is plaguing this band. They just need to get past the Tarja issue and start making good music again!

James wrote on 30.06.2009 at 06:08
to Lapsonen: we have been interviewed and so we know that you do not have to naswer every question.

Actually, you do not have to be interviewed, either. You might say "NO, thanks".

mermaid wrote on 30.06.2009 at 10:04
thanks, Legeon.

:-)

As for metal and vocalists: have you checked Bullet for my Valentine? I like Mathew´s vocals a lot - and on last album they started to sing more and to growl less, becasue of an operation Matt had. Which was a great thing in the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kbRy91SIb8

mermaid wrote on 30.06.2009 at 10:19
to mermaid: Yeah, and if you don't answer, then what happens? What do you think they will write if you say you DON'T want to talk about it? Just try to think. Soundi is a respected magazine and NW will surely give them interviews in the future as well. Anette-interview was a short look at the whole tour, which is the first one for Anette. And there was something about the future, like that she's looking forward to the next album etc. Only one question was about the gig in B.H.

lapsonen wrote on 30.06.2009 at 10:55
@ lapsonen

As said in the "NIGHTWISH: Marco Hietala interview "I have started singing more since Anette joined the band"", artists have the right to ask from any interviewer NOT to ask them about certain things,that are sensitive.
Or she could have just said "BH is past,no need to speak about it,it's history now" and it would be just fine.
It's pretty naive to think that artists are trapped and forced to answer to every question they are asked.

Legeon wrote on 30.06.2009 at 11:05
To Lapsonen:

I agree with Legeon completely - do you think that Tarja was never asked about NW within last 4 years? She certainly was and is.

And what would happen? Nothing at all.

mermaid wrote on 30.06.2009 at 11:16
You are all racist

Incognito wrote on 30.06.2009 at 16:59
Phantom said: "I honestly don't know why she wrote it just now... [Enough]"

Read the lyrics and you'll find the answer there Phantom.
...
Kept my thoughts buried in a box
With each shot I still kept it locked
You drew a play written with my blood
Went ahead just to feed the lot
...

What were those shots? Open letter, countless mudslinging interviews, Maestro & Diva & Mafioso Biography Book, replacing her with pop singer and like everything was not enough, there came a final shot, play written with her blood - Dark Pop Play (with songs like TPATP, BBB and MPG). She couldn't keep the box locked anymore. She unlocked it, not through the media but through the art.

TheSeer wrote on 30.06.2009 at 18:05
"mermaid" "we´ve been interviewed" Oh yeah? You and "legeon" might of been interviewed by an psychologist. Bullet for my valantine. That explains it. You´re an EMO fucktard. Everything became clear now. Be careful with that razorblade.

Wrathchild wrote on 30.06.2009 at 20:07
Wrathchild said: "You´re an EMO fucktard."

But Maestro isn't. Fortunately.

TheSeer wrote on 30.06.2009 at 20:35
@ Wrathchild

I would really like to see a psychologist be interviewed BY a psychologist.

Legeon wrote on 30.06.2009 at 21:03
"legeon" Yeah, me too. That´s why psycholgy is pseudo medicare. Freud was just an horny old bugger. BTW, they should bring back lobotomy. You and your friend could use it.

Wrathchild wrote on 30.06.2009 at 21:26
@ Wrathchild

It's weird how you use that term of job to attack us,but then you insult that very same job.
Lack of arguments,it is called.

It's not very interesting and certainly not original to see people bashing a whole science without even knowing anything about that,just to attack on others when they are sort of arguments.

Very smart comeback,you showed one more time how intellectual NW fans are.

Legeon wrote on 30.06.2009 at 21:39
legeon, please. Psychology is not science. No one can ever know how another person functions or thinks. Shrinks are just a bunch of bullshiters who are only interested in their clients money. BTW, how can you compare skills between two shrinks? Carpenters quite easilly but between two shrinks? Oh, I´m the better mind reader, yeah I know what goes on in your mind. Get a haircut and get a real job.

Wrathchild wrote on 30.06.2009 at 22:22
@ Wrathchild

Psychology IS science,and saying that it isn't when you obviously have no idea is just ridiculous.

Why should i get a hair cut?Girls normally have long hair,you know.
But again,why am i not surprised that NW fans' best shot is "get a job and a haircut" ?

Legeon wrote on 30.06.2009 at 22:59
wow, how come you are arguing about psychology? please, no matter how endearing Wrathchild's utter ignorance and cheap cliches about shrinks are, conspiracies totally pwns it.

lol wrote on 30.06.2009 at 23:03
@lapsonen

The person always can choose ways how to answer difficult questions. Instead of giving short comment she prefered to stress the whole drama, giving away more of band problems. Well, thanks for revealing them more, pretty much everybody already began to feel they existed, but paying such attention in such way to it after so much time. Sorry, bad taste from her.

Corey wrote on 02.07.2009 at 01:27
That's a wake-up call to do following:
- install better communication in the band;
- leave all their pampered attitudes, it goes for the guys who act now like drama queens and for miss Olzon who didn't do anything special yet, but already obtained diva attitude and style.

@The Seer, sorry to be a party pooper, but as Emppu already did this trick to one person, he could easily turn his back on another. Yeah it seemed he had those warm friednly relationships with ex vocalist, he even knew her from her childhood as I understand, but he still signed that letter to her, after he behaved so nicely towards her at that infamous gig, he didn't warn her or gave her hints she would be kicked out soon. I mean, since he was able to do so with someone he knew for so long, almost for 10 years, he could easily repeat the same experience with person whom he knows only for 2-3 years.

Ysabel wrote on 02.07.2009 at 12:11
Ysabel: a nice one.

Legeon: do not mind Wrathchild. Who cares what he thinks? Actually, I mentioned BFMV just as an example of singing vocalist (not growling vocalist): And I am not their fan, I just happen to meet the guy liek 12 years ago, or so, that is why I keep an eye on him, here and there, out of curiosity.

No idea what you mean by EMO - but they look smart and nice, as far as Wrathchild is clearly not one of them... I will maybe try them :-)

mermaid wrote on 02.07.2009 at 15:03
How fast NW repeated all their old mistakes and created new ones! They seem now to have more problems than advantages!

O_o wrote on 02.07.2009 at 23:51
"I don't think he said those words in a negative light, however I give you credit that it could be interpretated in a bad way.
I just take that as example when I said ..also Tarja is still "complaining" (which is not even the right word anyway, let's say she's still dropping some hints ;) ) . "

And as you say, Tarja maybe/does dropping some hints, but in your own words they are more discreet, neutral. While NW were commenting far more bluntly on things connected/about their ex-singer leaving far more space to be interpretated in a bad way. That's their problem, I'm afraid.

"you sound like I'm criticizing Tarja ;). Seriously I'm not. I think for me it's totally ok that she wrote and published Enough. But I don't find it ok people complaining about NW releasing BBB and praising Enough. It seems just hypocrite to me. For me, they both had their reasons to write these songs. "

As I said you seem like a reasonable guy to me and not die-hard fan of anybody and that's a plus.
I think people are complaining about BBB thing, because they understand that if it had not been for this song (as well as MPG), there could have been no reason for Enough also. The point is BBB appeared from the start on the new NW album. Enough appeared much later, I think it kinda proves the fact that at the beginning Tarja didn't want to dwell on negative stuff or to bitch about past and attitude of NW towards her in her solo stuff - until she found out about those songs and listened to them, and got some reasons to get more upset or angry than before. As I said, she couldn't have listened to DPP material while she was preparing her own solo album,unless Tuomas kept her updated on that matter, thus she didn't know that there would be such songs about her, her husband and the whole thing.

"I honestly don't know why she wrote it just now..maybe she felt like doing it, I don't know. I don't think she just thought "ok NW wrote BBB , let's write this one to strike back" lol. "

Here I surprisingly agree with something The Seer wrote. I do not think Tarja decided : "Oh they have songs like BBB and MPG, I should have my kind of these song also!" She is obviously not a Methuselah, but I do not think she is dumb. I think somehow, BBB, MPG, TPATP and all extra "attention" to her and her life and extra bashing caused by these songs were perhaps like the last straw. It was just too much to leave it totally unnoticed,unreplied taking in account all past things.

"Yes, of course he said many times in interviews that the last period with Tarja (year 2005) sucked . I was talking about him criticizing her as vocalist ;) . He said a lot of quite nasty things after the split in interviews..particularly towards Marcelo. Tuomas called him "serpent in his heaven" lol , and "mafia dude" who brainwashed the sweet Tarja lol. I thought that he was going crazy, I mean..I would have been more diplomatic at least."

Well, I never said he was criticizing her as vocalist. ;)
But those things he said about Marcelo, they are just overboard. Marcelo is not a Saint I'm sure, but I'm also sure he is not a Satan in the way Tuomas portraied him. It is really funny that Tuomas dedicated whole song to him, all those passionate comments and even special epigraph to the song about him. Marcelo recieved far more attention from him than Tarja, lol.

Pam wrote on 03.07.2009 at 01:17
Pam said: "Marcelo recieved far more attention from him than Tarja, lol."

Hardly anybody would have known about Marcelo if there hadn't been that open letter and that book. Maestro made him into a celebrity. :-)

TheSeer wrote on 03.07.2009 at 12:57
Seer, exactly.

mermaid wrote on 03.07.2009 at 14:18
@Pam
"Well, I never said he was criticizing her as vocalist. ;)
But those things he said about Marcelo, they are just overboard. Marcelo is not a Saint I'm sure, but I'm also sure he is not a Satan in the way Tuomas portraied him. It is really funny that Tuomas dedicated whole song to him, all those passionate comments and even special epigraph to the song about him. Marcelo recieved far more attention from him than Tarja, lol."

yes I know, but I was referring to c riticizing her as vocalist ;). Nevermind

Of course Marcelo is not Satan, but Tuomas blamed mostly him for what happened. I still think MPG screams jealousy, but it's my personal opinion.

As for Enough. I think that if Tarja wanted to put her feelings about the split into music, she would have done regardless of the fact Tuomas wrote those songs. And on the contrary, if she preferred to shut up about the thing she simply would have ignored them . ;) It could be that she got somehow angry after getting to know about those songs and she get inspired. Anyway, it doesn't really matter for me.

Phantom wrote on 03.07.2009 at 14:39
Jeremy: I'll give you Ghost Love Score (haven't I already said that I much prefer that one to most of the rest of the album?), but otherwise, Once is a big bowl of meh, very unbalanced and incoherent album, and Ghost Love Score wouldn't be half as good weren't it for the orchestrations that Maestro didn't even write himself.

In fact that's the most interesting thing about Maestro. In the beginning, he wrote pretty much everything and was quite humble about it, even self-critical. Now he praises his own vision and writes less of the material than before. All the orchestrations that make everyone go "whoa" and "Tuomas Holopainen is a freaking genius" are actually written and arranged by Pip Williams. ;)

AFF was slagged as "not a real NW album, just a demo" by Tuomas. Wonder if that has something to do that his input to this album was smaller than on Oceanborn; the compositions are all credited to just "Nightwish". You need to know that the three initial demos were not fully composed; instead, Tuomas left it to Tarja to ad-lib fitting vocal lines. One of the demos, namely "Etiäinen", ended up on AFF, as part of the "Lappi" suite (it was re-recorded, but the vocal melodies were not changed). So at least this part of AFF was actually composed by Tarja. ;)

As for "selling out", well, if you think that Metallica never sold out, and neither did Nightwish, then how can you sell out at all? (By going from metal to rap?) To me, selling out doesn't necessarily mean starting to make crap music with no artistic merit or any other values at all (some people think that even making a halfway original catchy pop song melody is an art), but compromising your vision and pandering to a more mainstream audience, especially when you are already successful and established enough that the only reason to do this is actually greed. Obviously Tuomas Holopainen is a talented composer, but ever since his sophomore, he's never lived up to his true potential anymore. Once was not 100% bad, but it could have been so much better, and that's why I care about it at all.

Almagest wrote on 04.07.2009 at 01:43
Also, in a case like this when the band actually accuse their former singer of greed and not being "metal" enough, as opposed to their own (ostensible) "art pour l'art" attitude, their overtly - and increasingly - commercial orientation, even if many fans have a hard time acknowledging it, any symptom of commercialism and greed on the part of the moralisers is just the more peculiar. Nightwish is now the GOP of metal, in the worst possible way: Preaching one thing, but practicing the exact opposite, and nearly destroying a career out of hypocrisy. George W. Bush could not be more disingenuous and cynical.

Iron Maiden have managed to achieve worldwide success for decades without ever selling out (I have no problem with occasional mainstreamish singles such as "Run to the Hills", I do understand the desire of bands to garner airplay).

King Crimson had an unstable line up and changed their style all the time, but they have always been dark and experimental, and never made any real concessions to mainstream radio. In fact, if they had made more relatively easily digested songs like "One More Red Nightmare" (which, incidentally, sounds a lot like metal) and gone on to release them as singles, they would be more well known and less of a pure cult phenomenon nowadays, most probably. But here you have an example of a band who were able to go through decades without the support of mainstream audiences or even any notoriety in those circles, but still they left a deep mark in the history of music and arguably, they invented symphonic rock and a sound that was to become very influential on metal all the way back in 1969.

Sieges Even changed their style multiple times as well, but they never made easy music, even if it meant that commercial success eluded them and they disbanded and reformed and disbanded again, frustrated by that state of affairs. But Sieges Even was a creative outlet for the Holzwarth brothers in the first place, not a band seriously meant to make a living from. Still, their music, especially on recent albums, is certainly far from unlistenable.

Black Sabbath changed their style and singer several times, but again, despite their success, I don't think you'd call them a sellout.

The only band whose recent history even comes close to the drama of Nightwish is, ironically, fellow Finnish metal band and huge influence, Stratovarius. Still, both sides have moved on eventually, and Tolkki actually GRANTED the rest of the band the name "Stratovarius" even though he had the rights to the name. (Perhaps Tuomas should take Tolkki's generosity as a model ;) ) But I'm sure Tero knows more about this than I will ever know. :)

I simply refuse to accept the idea that bands invariably and automatically MUST turn commercial, or perish.

Almagest wrote on 04.07.2009 at 02:45
I think the need to vent anger is a perfectly valid inspiration for a rock song, I wouldn't have passed up the occasion either; as long as it is handled with taste and class. I find "Enough" to be ambiguous and subtle enough; something so important for one's life as Nightwish is for Tarja will always play a certain role in her music and lyrics.

As for symphonic metal bands with female singers, Diablo Swing Orchestra are another positive example. They can hardly be called an unoriginal clone.

Squarely going against the trend, Epica even went more extreme on The Divine Conspiracy instead of more commercial, up to the use of blast beats (in a passage recalling black metal). That even though Epica had just changed to Nuclear Blast at that point. They did have a typical single with Never Enough, not my favourite on the album, but for a blatantly commercial song, it is surprisingly good, with a lot of variety.

Almagest wrote on 04.07.2009 at 04:53
Ahh, and another one: Xandria have switched their "normal" singer to one of those ubiquitous poperanos (popera sopranos), obviously they're just hanging on to a trend in mainstream music! (Not really :P)

Almagest wrote on 04.07.2009 at 17:13
"yes I know, but I was referring to c riticizing her as vocalist ;). Nevermind
Of course Marcelo is not Satan, but Tuomas blamed mostly him for what happened. I still think MPG screams jealousy, but it's my personal opinion. "

Well, it is a bit strange that he blamed all evils on this just one person, and now band is also having lots of problems, many of them quite resemble the old ones, but there in no Marcelo around. Maybe the problem was not in Marcelo only...
Jealousy? I'm quiet very sceptical about all this love theory, but yet again one can never be sure.

"As for Enough. I think that if Tarja wanted to put her feelings about the split into music, she would have done regardless of the fact Tuomas wrote those songs. And on the contrary, if she preferred to shut up about the thing she simply would have ignored them . ;) It could be that she got somehow angry after getting to know about those songs and she get inspired. Anyway, it doesn't really matter for me. "

I meant that she perhaps kept her feelings to herself until she found out about songs like BBB, MPG and extra publicity she got "thanks" to those songs. After that, in your own words "she got somehow angry and she get inspired" or better to say fed up with it all and released that song. It also isn't sense of all my life, but I not only respect the word "justness", but its meaning as well.

"Hardly anybody would have known about Marcelo if there hadn't been that open letter and that book. Maestro made him into a celebrity. :-)"

Well, die-hard fans would still have known who was the husband of the band's frontwoman, but clearly he wouldn't be so famous and wouldn't have chance to get his "own" song with epighraph ;)

Pam wrote on 04.07.2009 at 19:31
Pam :
"Jealousy? I'm quiet very sceptical about all this love theory, but yet again one can never be sure."

well I find it weird that he wrote lyrics as :
Seek her
Seduce her
Have her
Feast on it all

for someone he dislikes only as manager , adding also some heavy bullshits Tuomas said towards him after the split . I might be wrong too but it's actually quite fitting considering also Marcelo statement (unless he was playing Tuomas' same game of media attention) . Who can tell it.

Phantom wrote on 04.07.2009 at 20:43
"well I find it weird that he wrote lyrics as :
Seek her
Seduce her
Have her
Feast on it all

for someone he dislikes only as manager , adding also some heavy bullshits Tuomas said towards him after the split . I might be wrong too but it's actually quite fitting considering also Marcelo statement (unless he was playing Tuomas' same game of media attention) . Who can tell it."

As I said one can never be sure exactly. It may be true, it may be not true. I just do not want put a label "yes, he loved her for sure" cause we do not know exactly. BTW, was there also "kill her" verse? Strange indeed ;).

Pam wrote on 04.07.2009 at 20:54
it seems like every time nightwish does a gig in Belo Horizonte something bad happens.

missay wrote on 15.07.2009 at 04:17
I saw the video of her collapse and I'm sorry dear Anette, But the only thing I heard was Brazilians fans calling for you, SUPPORTING YOU ! they sreamed "Anette! Anette!"
It's a shame to say those things about Brazilians people, because NW has got lots of fan in South America!

Brazilians fans are not responsible of Anette psychological problems and of course her poor shitty voice.

And I love the "Until that gig (Belo Horizonte) I managed to be pretty much perfect"

LOL! yeah sure, If you believe that girl, good for you!

Devy wrote on 22.07.2009 at 13:52
Phantom said: "I might be wrong too but it's actually quite fitting considering also Marcelo statement (unless he was playing Tuomas' same game of media attention) . Who can tell it."

YOU can tell it if you connect your brain for once! Marcelo wanted media attention so what did he do? Answered 150 questions from (Tuomas') fans and the link got removed soon from Tarja's website, so that now it can hardly be found anywhere. So MUCH effort for such a petty RESULT. Do you really think he couldn't do it better (getting media attention)? Do you think that he is so incapable?

Devy said: "I saw the video of her collapse and I'm sorry dear Anette, But the only thing I heard was Brazilians fans calling for you, SUPPORTING YOU ! they sreamed "Anette! Anette!"
It's a shame to say those things about Brazilians people, because NW has got lots of fan in South America! "

Dozens of people screamed "Anette! Anette!". SO WHAT if one or two screamed "Tarja! Tarja!". What would have she done if only one had screamed "Anette!" while dozens screamed "Tarja!"???

"And I love the "Until that gig (Belo Horizonte) I managed to be pretty much perfect". "

She is very much down-to-earth. A typical Swedish country girl. :-)

TheSeer (narrow-minded one) wrote on 25.07.2009 at 21:14
"She is very much down-to-earth. A typical Swedish country girl. :-)"

lol sure ^^ so humble our Nettie !!
But I know lots of Swedish, and I must say that they are adorable people.
Anette is just NOT representative of her country ^^

Devy wrote on 27.07.2009 at 17:28
ah, hello, hello, Seer is really back!

actually, I might have these answeres from Marcelo somewhere in old files... do you want me to search?

mermaid wrote on 28.07.2009 at 12:54
@mermaid: thanks but I also have them on my computer. Back in 2005 after that open letter I was pretty down so I didn't read those answers. I read them only later, and it was luckily only a month or so before they got removed.

TheSeer (narrow-minded one) wrote on 28.07.2009 at 19:53

NIGHTWISH: Anette Olzon says her collapse was a wakeup-call for the entire band

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